Last week, I called Atheist Revolution to task for suggesting that fundamentalism was somehow more rational and cohesive a theology than more progressive mainstream religious thinking.
I suggested that the author meant to “get the goat” of believers rather than honestly suggest such a ludicrous theory, or that he was utterly uninformed. As anyone knows who is not a fundamentalist of any religion, such mindsets and worldviews are anything BUT rational and fact based.
Another post by the same author has yet again rung so untrue that it got me to thinking about the subject in general. Basically, he suggests that parental insistence that children attend religious services against their will is tantamount to child abuse. And he points to his own experience as evidence. Again, I submit something else is at work.
While I’ve suggested that forcing fundamentalism upon a child can be child abuse (a significant portion of said indoctrinees become atheists when they enter the real world, and or are significantly deficient in science learning, putting them far behind in college), it is hard for me to realize how simply imposing a requirement of church attendance without more, can damage a child.
Here is my reasoning. Let’s say that parents A require child B to attend Sunday services. Now, as the child ages, certainly most rebel against this. But the rebellion has little to do with a professed adherence to atheism. The rebellion is the general rebellion common to all kids who are seeking independence. The child doesn’t rebel against God so much as he’d rather be with friends playing basketball. His priorities are different!
For those small numbers of kids who have at an early age developed a rational intellectual argument against the concept of a deity, I don’t think harm is the result. Rather, this rational child sees the whole process as primitive and outmoded. He argues with parents and others who will listen that there are better and more rational answers to unknowables than a God. He is bemused certainly by the religiosity of others, and perhaps angry at his time being usurped in this manner, but a couple of hours a week can be “lived” with.
I cannot for the life of me, find where some deep psychological harm would emanate from. Atheism prides itself on being coldly rational, an intellectual tour de force if you will. Religion to them, is cultish and ritual mumbo jumbo, hardly the stuff to torture the mind of a rational atheist.
So, I submit that the writer has other issues, perhaps ones that he has misunderstood as resulting from forced church attendance. (No doubt there are cultic forms of religion that practice harmful rituals, such as sacrifice of animals and such, that can be harmful, but these I submit are so minor as to be outside the norm of our discussion.)
Still, an important issue is raised. If it is right and proper for parents to require church attendance of their children, how much and for how long comes to mind. I have an opinion on this, but it is one born of what common sense tells me. It is the result of my life experiences either witnessed or read about. So, I’m interested in what tack others feel is appropriate or not.
My thinking is that family church attendance serves other purposes than the instillation of religious belief. Feelings of security, reliability, love, responsibility and such are served by making this a family affair. Modeling of intact family units, sharing, cooperation, and other attributes are offered by the family itself and by other congregationalists.
Up to a certain age, children have not the ability to rationally decide for themselves what is valuable and what not. But, age does play a significant factor. Age, and maturity. I would tend to place the cut off at 14. Here, children have had significant experiences of their own, they know what they believe or don’t (at least for the moment), and they have had a time to sift through the information offered in church settings.
If a child, at 14 (presumably an age when parents feel comfortable leaving a youngster alone for a few hours at home), decides that church is not for him, then I think it appropriate to allow him/her to stop. The inculcation of other values can still be imposed through family “time” on Sunday for an appropriate number of hours. After discussion, there may be “independent” study requirements to learn of other faith traditions or none to help the child sort out their true feelings and beliefs.
I would agree that forcing a child to not only attend services past a certain age, but also to participate in numerous other church related groups and practices is not appropriate and counter productive. This I do think turns off kids, and creates either out right atheists or at least secular Christians (those I define as professing a belief in God, but a distrust of organized religion).
Anyway, that’s my take on the subject. It’s a thorny one, no doubt, and people on all sides tend to be assertive of their belief and protective of their position. Can we talk to each other rather than across each other? What say you?
Existential Ennui 
My mom dragged us all to church even long after she had lost her faith (and we knew it), believing we at least needed the exposure, but none of us ever pointed a finger at her because of it.
Reading this guy’s article, I get the feeling his parents were more fervent (or maniacal) in their worship than he’s letting on. If that’s the case, I guess it could be considered a type of psychological abuse. But I doubt we’ll ever get the real story on his blog.
yes, my take exactly. Something much more sinister was at work. I can’t imagine a bright thinking atheist being broken or nearly so, merely by sitting an hour a week listening to a preacher.
Draw the Line was probably the last really good Aerosmith record. I was about 12 or 13 when I started vocally indicating to my parents that I was just about done with church. After some hemming and hawing, they finally let me stay home. Of course, not long after, they stopped going as well, not that I blame them. I was moving towards atheism, they were moving towards sleep. We had amplified drones masquerading as priests back then.
thanks for sharing Randal. Sounds like your parents did exactly as I believe…so I’m right of course…lol…I’m getting more and more concerned about just where the lines should be drawn in interferring with parental control. At some point all of society has a vested interest in psychologically and intellectually sound individuals. The line is hard to draw.
For the record, I never suggested – nor would I ever suggest – that fundamentalist religion is rational or fact-based in any way. I said that they have a more coherent worldview (i.e., they can articulate what they believe). I’m not sure why you want to misrepresent this.
I don’t think I did. I agree, you said that they have a more coherent worldview than mainstream Christians, and that I claim is utter nonsense. There is zero coherent about fundamentalism period. It is a pyschological state of mind that demands certainty for securities sake. Being able to articulate what one believes is hardly a definition of coherence. There is I woul argue basic coherence in mainstream Christianity as there is probably in most major world faiths. You may not agree with it, but there is rational argument that holds together very well. YOu may be mistaking the fact that many mainstream Christians are not well versed in their faith, while fundies usually are because it is that important to their emotional wellbeing. The fact that some mainstream Christians cannot articulate their faith well, takes nothing away from the underlying rationality that in fact exists. The fact that they are not fully aware of it is of no moment.
But if you feel some how misrepresented, do reply in greater detail. It comes as no surprise or expectation that you personally dismiss all religious faith as irrational. In that we were not confused.
I don’t think the psychological abuse comes from entering the Church building itself, it comes from the enforced indoctrination of a gullible child (gullible as virtually all children are) into something that IS psychologically damaging – namely, the risk of the eternal torture and torment, without respite or recompense, of the child, the child’s family, and the child’s friends.
The risk isn’t in dragging an atheist to Church – as you say, they will view the whole thing with bemused scepticism. When I see someone pray, perhaps on my behalf, I see it as cute but, ultimately futile. I don’t go mad from the experience.
The child who DOES believe, however, IS kowtowed into fear and mental regression. The atheist child will brush it all off as nonsense, but the Christian child will take it as gospel truth (no pun intended).
That deep-set fear, while not universal to all indoctrinated children, is still prevalent enough to ruin lives. At the very least, give children the time to make an informed choice.
I feel fortunate in that I was taken to church as an atheist, and thus flew over the horrifying teachings – but I worry for those who ARE taken in by it all.
I agree somewhat Dave, but not much. First of all, most mainline churches, Protestant or Catholic, don’t spend much if any time on doctrines of hell, eternal damnation, torment, and the like. That is the province of the fundamentalist church, and I agree that forcing a child to attend such churchs can be abusive for the reasons you stated. But frankly, even here, we are on slippery ground. Children routinely are told that Santa won’t visit if they aren’t “good”. This is used as a means to control children during the season when everyone is busy. No doubt plenty of kids have worried mightily whether their infractions would result in a Santa no show.
If you received “horrifying” teachings then I suppose you were taken to a fundie church. That is truly a pity. It is not the type of thing that is taught in Episcopal, or Catholic churches and from what I am told, not what is taught in Methodists, Lutheran, Presbyterian denominations either, to say nothing of UU, Church of Christ, and Unity churches. All teach concepts of love and tolerance, compassion and empathy and most of all service. The “horrifying” stuff is mostly on the books, but not preached by and large.
Thanks for your input.