Tags
bible, Chaz Bono, creationism, evolution, fundamentalism, gay rights, Genesis, God
I don’t know if you appreciate just how hard I work to remain sane, and thus bring you news you can trust. Seriously, it’s quite a chore here in the land of Internet inter tubes. Ya see, the Internet is like tubes, with trucks. . . .oh never mind that’s another story.
And as you probably can figure out without my help, the Contrarian is no help in this pursuit of sanity, since he tends to push another whole set of my “the world is freakin’ nuts” buttons. Love conquers much in this respect however.
And yes, I know, I can hear you already. “If you didn’t go around courting disaster, you wouldn’t run into these impossible discussions that drive you madder than a hatter late for a tea party.” You did just say that didn’t you? I think I heard that right. And. . . . or am I just channeling some of Randal’s excess out of this worldly universe run on sentences that are not meant to make sense so much as they are meant to evoke images that sear the synapses and lodge in the deep crannies of my skull? (How’d I do Randal?)
I have been off Catholic Answers that bastion of wacko religious right babbling for some weeks, but have slipped in the mucky mire of old school chums who have been closeted in some far away universe being indoctrinated in how not to be logical or use your senses, which hopefully we believe are God given? So, yeah, it’s my own fault. Never follow my own advice.
Listen and hear me good: religious fundamentalism + logic = NOTHING INTELLIGIBLE
Be that as it may, I continue to pound my only head against any rock that shows up in the way. Not only does it make me dizzy, it hurts.
Example 1: When you can find in the bible where God said he would use evolution as his means of creating, I’ll believe that! Oh okay, I gotta use your theology to prove my point? That’s logical, NOT.
Example 2: My pet peeve is people who believe in evolution and thus don’t believe in God’s WORD , and then insist on calling themselves Christians. Oh Okay, I’ll alert eight tenths of the Christian world and see about coming up with a new name for us. Hello, it is after all YOUR interpretation, not the ONLY interpretation.
Example 3: I don’t care about what choice of lifestyle one makes, . . . . but God said it was a choice. Oh, Okay, where exactly?
I grab the nearest solid object and cling for dear life. I’m being sucked into a whole new plane or reality right? Naw, I’m just flying through those tubes and missed my exit.
I have been reading a lot Genesis this week. That’s where I’m at in my EFM class. Von Rad and Brueggemann. Both classic writers on the subject. Both deeply accepted by even the average traditionalist Christian, as long as you don’t go crazy literal. Both talk about how there is no way that the creation story #1 (or #2 for that matter) was meant to be taken literally as scientific fact. But it was not myth either.
It speaks to the history of the people. Written after the exile in the 6th century, but containing much older material, it speaks to the chaos of the people and their lives under Babylonian rule. And it assures them that God IS the creator, bringing forth all that is, and that God will never abandon humanity. The point is covenant, the tension is how God relates and how creature relates. It is Creator, creating Creature. It is unassailable, unbreakable. This exile thing will end.
It defines God as deeply loving and caring of his creation. It speaks to our joy in following his will. It is not commanding. It recognizes the creature’s will. It reassures and gives hope to all. It does such harm and disservice to try to turn it into a science declaration. That utterly misses the point.
I don’t know. I only believe. That is my crime I guess. The fundies KNOW, believing is dangerous, and means I think that God can declare that they have failed the test. Believe the book, the world, I set up to trick you. Believe the book.
Counterpoint. That fundie nonsense is the source of most atheism.
Hey, I just ran into a pic of Chastity Bono. Chaz now. It’s hard to imagine what it must feel like to be one sex inside and look down and see the wrong equipment. I’m happy for him, glad he can fix the error in genetics. Evolution tells us that not all mutations are useful, some are downright annoying or worse.
Anyway, Chaz got it right. He’s a kinda cute dude. He wasn’t such a cute girl.
By the by, I’ve apologized to my school chums about cluttering up their links and remarks with disagreement. I’ve promised to let it be. I’m hoping to make progress. You cannot reach everyone. You can’t reach most anyone I suspect. But you can and do reach one now and then, and that is enough. If I’m horridly wrong, then at least I don’t do too much damage either.
I’m humble. Make that humbler, more humble, making my way to humblist, most humble? Age teaches you that you have limitations, even intellectual ones. I have as usual more questions than answers, but I try to impart what I believe it true. I ask God for wisdom, and I believe that here and there I get some. Who knows. I hopefully get points for trying. Maybe not.
I’m still searching for the restaurant at the end of the universe. Hoping to meet the Buddha and Jesus. Maybe have a cup ‘o joe and a piece of pie. Save me some rhubarb if you would. Just sayin’.
Existential Ennui 
People who claim they believe Genesis 1 literally have clearly bumped their head on the “firmament” a few too many times…
LOL James…It was my take certainly, but glad to hear it from someone like yourself with some real credentials in the field! I should have probably given you a link since I read you piece on the visiting YEC’er this morning.
I think my favorite Genesis album is either Foxtrot or Selling England By the Pound.
Randal, you just keep pushing God’s sense of humor doncha? Heathen
I’m not sure why you’re picking on Randal. I’ve been trying to learn Tony Banks’ keyboard solo from “Cinema Show”…
Randal is pickable! And he’s got a reservation with Satan already waiting for him. He’ll tell ya!
This post reminds me of the inmate who returned a bible to the chapel, claiming it was “defective.” I asked him what was wrong with it.
“It has the words of Jesus in red in the New Testament, but not in the Old.”
Uh-huh. And I’m gonna wrangle with him about biblical MYTH?
Sheesh.
ROFL…oh goodness Shannon, that is priceless!
A Baptist High School girl online years ago told me that Genesis Does describe the sequence of Creation steps as they happenned. She asked how the Writer 6,000 years ago could have guessed the sequence. Evolutionary too.
Catholic Answers is not a Catholic site. It was created to an Independent minded Convert who has Very Big Money, Republican Attitudes and lines.
He disagreed with Catholic Bishops a year ago Voting Guidelines on Inherent Evils. He has his own More Republican slant.
I was banned from that site, Most Popular, when I lectured someone on bashing President Carter crudelly and violation of their TOS. But a Moderator warned me not to. He Banned me permanently when I filed a Formal Complaint against him. I had stated clearly that George W Bushonomics was Not ‘conservative’, but radically far out ‘liberal’ from massive surpluses to massive, bankrupting deficits.
They never answered me,. I plan to take them to U.S. District Court for their Violation of their TOS Rules!
The Bible clearly suggests we have to chose which lifestyle we want. The Suggestion is pretty Strong.
Anthony I didn’t know that CAF wasn’t catholic in origin. That’s some interesting information.
As to the choice…I agree, we are called to choose insofar as we live a moral life or not as we define that. But nowhere does the bible claim that homosexuality is a choice…they had zero means to know that. It is only clear today that it is partly genetic and partly nurturing and environmental, but you don’t find many if any gays who don’t claim that the felt “born that way.’
Sherry, I don’t know why you continue to kick against the goads at these sites.
“I gotta use your theology to prove my point? That’s logical, NOT”
I’m not sure what you mean by “prove,” but, to persuade, of course you have to do so in the context of and consistent with your hearer’s theology. Their ultimate locus of authority is different from yours. It’s not their logic that is different, but their premises.
And we all have to deal with contradictions. As I understand things, the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics are contradictory. They do not mesh. Scientists have been working on a unified field theory for the better part of the last century. I rather suspect that there is such a unity that is yet to be found. But that’s faith, not science. And I am glad the scientists haven’t yet said, “they are inconsistent, they are therefore nonsense.”
Genesis is indeed a wonderful book, but I find reading through form-critical and historical-critical lenses as distorting as trying to read it as science.
rick, I don’t know either. I’m working through it and trying to find answers. I think it is merely that they don’t grant what I think is essential,,,,that their opinions are just that. My opinions are given no dignity of being serious and sincere. They are just labeled wrong, and so I continue to point out the illogic of their position.
My point is that I cannot prove to their satisfaction through the scriptures that I am right, for I define and see the scriptures as meaning entirely different things than they do, and they do not accept the possibilities that this way of looking at things can be right. So it’s a debate where they demand to set the rules.
I realize that in the field of QM and relativity, there is contradiction. I am also aware that there are mathmatical models that do unify the theories. It’s just that there are multiple models and all still quite clumsy. The experts tell me via their writings that there is a belief that the correct model will be elegantly simple, and I rather think that makes sense.
But in a general sense, the illogic of the fundie is well documented. They fudge on science, accepting that which doesn’t butt against their theology and arbitrarily denying the efficacy of that which does. It’s nice when it comes to the light switch and the car, its evil when it comes to discussing the progression of the universe and life. That’s only one example. There are tons more. No other faith system requires such a denial of the obvious in order to sustain itself. I’m not going to listen to people who still think that footprints of humans and dinosaurs beside each other means they lived at the same time. That has been answered more than 25 years ago. And most of their “experts” have no expertise at all. They seek out any support, regardless of credentials that will support what they NEED to believe.
I am sorry you find reading through a historical critical lens unhelpful. It’s not the least distorting to me. I in fact gain a much greater appreciation of the incredible wisdom an minds of the ancients. I think that they stellar pastoral message is huge, much huger than the literal words convey. But I did have a fundie tell me that Brueggemann wasn’t their cup of tea. It shocks me, since his imagery is so awesome to me. He makes God so incredibly huge and mindbogglingly awesome. But it goes to show that people are incredibly different in what they can hear and understand.
//Evolution tells us that not all mutations are useful, some are downright annoying or worse//
Ya..boy, you should check out some of the evolutionary mutants in my office!!! Genesis album? “Lamb lies down on Broadway”
Frankly, I believe the concept of God freaks out so many people that ‘they’ (some day I want to meet ‘them’) feel compelled to contort the concept into a box that fits ‘their’ reality. Which could be an ok thing.
I mean… I don’t think that God, if he exists, would really care that much. Or, if he exists, would care enough to say, “Everyone is right”. I mean, he is God, after all.
Genesis album? “Trick of the Tale” now that I think about it. But I don’t think about it much.
Jimm, we all come to a place of reconciling ourselves to the transcendent. Believer or not, we do this. And we all conform God in some sense to our needs as creatures. We can be aware of this, largely by reading broadly of others’s experience and construct, or we can remain stubbornly in our own, and argue that we are correct. I don’t find that understanding God is helped by a one dimensional approach.
You could be right about God not carrying. Personally, I think he does. But there would be good reasons for concluding otherwise. It makes for long sessions of thinking, and that I suspect is a good thing.
Thanks for your quirky but sweet remarks!
Good points. Have you ever read “Up from Eden” by Ken Wilber? It’s an old book of his, but it opened me up so much to the realization that the stories told in the OT were from primitive peoples. The conception of God as punishing and vengeful came from people who were not as fully conscious as we are–and do we still have a long way to go!
EFM is a good course. As someone in our class keeps saying: she’s glad it’s NOT a Bible study!
Oh no Jan, not another book you recommend? they are always the best. I’ll add it to my list, I promise.
I agree the concepts of primitive people were primitive, but lord did the P writer have some kinda brilliance in how he used the existing stories to uphold and give hope to an exiled people. The imagery is just stunning to me.
And yes, EFM is a perfect vehicle for me. It allows me to pursue in depth and have folks to bounce ideas off of.
Beware of those who call themselves Christians and then on a regular basis speak publically and privately in the most acrimonious way they can. True followers of Christ Jesus may lose control (due to passion on a subject) for a season, but would be reined in by what we like to call conscience. Christians, most likely, would not spend much time name calling and mocking other Christians…here’s a good example: “that fundie nonsense is the source of most atheism. I’m still searching for the restaurant at the end of the universe hoping to meet the Buddha and Jesus”. All I can say is good luck Sherry…you’ve got a long wait ahead of you. John 13:35 says “By this all men will know that you are MY disciples, if you have love for one another”. You and I both know your comments are definitely NOT not in spoken in love.
Please excuse the mis-typing of my last sentence. You and I both know your comments are definitely Not spoken in love.
First, prove me wrong on the atheist comment (sister of Bethany perhaps?) and then explain your offence at Buddha? I’m sure my readers would be interested.
You claim to be Christian yet your response still holds the smell of mockery…why is that? Do you seek to sow that type of dissension? I wonder where in your blog I will see your love for God proclaimed. God gave us two commandments which Christians are to follow. First, to love your God with all you heart, soul and strength; second, to love your neighbor as yourself.
You were the one who claimed that atheism was due to fundamental Christianity. The proof is on you Sherry. It is evident that you will likely not change your opinion based on my thoughts…the same holds true for me changing my mind based on your thoughts. So, why would a person be driven to atheism based on a fundamentalist’s view? That is the offense! You do know the original fundamentalist was Jesus.
As far a Buddha goes, I have no opinion at all…doesn’t offend me. The offense is when you, claiming Christianity, paint the visual of Christ Jesus some how being on an equal footing with Buddha. Your remark is a little too flippant for it to have come from the daughter of the King.
One of the faults of a fundie is that they seldom get outside their comfort zone. Most all atheists were former fundies. Go to most any of their sites and you will find their indictment of Christianity is based on their understanding of Christianity, and it is a fundamentalist understanding. The problem with fundamentalism, is that when one finds an error in the theology, the entire theology crumbles, and the person usually loses all faith. Threrein is the reason fundies stop their ears to what might cut against their worldview. It’s way too dangerous. If anything in the bible is finally seen as in error, they throw the book away. Most unfortunate but sadly true.
Jesus was most assuredly not a fundamentalist, but he actually spoke against the prevailing theology of the Pharisees. He was a radical preacher who preached equality between men and women and for ALL the “other” in his society.
If it offends you to see Buddha having a cup of coffee with Jesus, then it is you who draw the analogy that one is being placed in some equality with Christ, not I. Since when is having a cup of joe together mean equality?
And by your judgment do you not as well not follow the Christ as a proper daughter? We all sin, but you’re I think a bit in danger of the pot calling the kettle black.
If my words are so offensive to you, pray tell why do you dirty your mind reading this? I have given Beth my promise not to comment on her right wing links to Glenn Beck and all the Fox Noise gang.
I fully admit my faults. Tomorrow hopefully I will do better. Peace be with you and may God rightly lead you to clarity.
Sherry,
The tone of your response is totally expected. I think you make my point quite clearly. As in all your other notes regarding Christianity, you continue regurgitate your self promoting philosophy.
Maybe you know so much about atheists / fundamentalist connection you speak of because you are speaking about your own experience.
I do agree with you on one point. All men are sinners. Christianity is a club you must be unworthy to belong to. We are no better than anyone else…we’re just forgiven. In my opinion, out of love for the One who gives salvation the goal in Christianity is to follow as closely as possible. Your acrimony is clearly towards those who you see as more devoted to Christ’s precepts.
Be careful what you teach my friend…there are consequences to being a false teacher. In God’s word it warns against adding to or taking away from this Book. Lastly, I leave you with Scripture which seems to suit our conversation: I Tim 6:20 “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing so have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you”.
I’ll give you the last word. Choose wisely.
Thanks for your judgment.
Sherry, thank you for such a lovely post. Being a big-city dweller, I miss the subtle shifts of seasons you’re able to enjoy. You took me there and as I look out my window (from the 42nd floor), the world looks different.
Then, as I scanned the responses, I was saddened to see not so much has changed. How your evocation of the seasons and off-handed reference to the Fundie-atheist link (as well as a sparkling image of Jesus and Buddha sharing a cup at the end of the universe) could arouse such vilification dumbfounds me.
I’ll not join the fray, though every fiber of my being wants to. All I’ll say is Jesus said, “Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” That another would co-opt this post to pump vitriol into your clear autumnal air reveals a dark heart hiding behind fabricated light. The undue and certainly unwelcome condemnation brings life to Christ’s statement, “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged.”
I’m pleased you let it be. Know that your readers see through the attack and every dart aimed at your observations boomeranged exactly as Jesus said they would. How blessed we are to be free of defending ourselves or condemning those who condemn us; how kind of them to spare us of that by doing it themselves.
Oh, and for the record, as a dyed-in-the-hide, fifth generation Fundamentalist and Bible-bred preacher’s kid, I submit it’s not the doctrine, but the antics of its hardcore defenders–like those documented here–that cause so many leave our fold convinced no God exists.
True Fundamentalism teaches humility and self-denial in service to the fruits of the Spirit, which include kindness, patience, meekness, gentleness, and self-control. Its authentic followers take the Bible very literally, including admonitions to avoid doctrinal controversies and disputes. They link Christ’s commandments to love with Paul’s definition in 1 Corinthians 13, which favors the Fundie mindset by explaining what love is by categorizing what it is not. And all of this–like everything they believe–is couched in confidence God is intimately involved in every detail of our lives, knowing everything about us down to our hair count.
Thus, when earnest, innocent-minded Fundies suffer unprovoked attacks within their community (which, I’m sorry to say, make what we see here look like child’s play), their faith completely capsizes. A God Who supposedly sanctions such brazen cruelty is no god at all. I have no idea if any empirical research exists to confirm the high frequency of ex-Fundie atheists, but I can personally vouch for your statement. Having endured harsh Fundie rejection and condemnation myself, I teetered on the edge of atheism for quite a while. It was only by God’s grace that I didn’t fall. It grieves me to say I know literally hundreds who took the plunge and now lay broken and angry in their darkness.
Jesus said if we cause a little child to fall, better we should tie a millstone around our necks and throw ourselves into the sea. The world is littered with ex-Fundie atheists driven to their extreme by rabid bullies who abuse God’s Word and usurp His authority to condemn and punish. Unfortunately for Fundamentalists who lead humble lives of integrity, these faux representatives make so much racket and do such harm they tarnish the doctrine and its true followers. If I could, I’d send every one of them a millstone and directions to the nearest pier.
So, Sherry, keep up the fine work. Fight the good fight of faith. Know your reward is in Heaven, not in the favor of men. And please, please keep my overly zealous, woefully misguided sister in your prayers. She’s obviously wounded and afraid, or else she wouldn’t feel threatened to the point of coming here intent on attacking you. Paul says, “We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves.” If she’ll allow it, in bearing with her you can help her.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim, your wise words always humble me exceedingly, and I bear my own guilt in fanning the flames. I do agree wholeheartedly that there are fundamentalists who are not to be feared, who are gracious, deeply believing, and non-judgmental. The are overshadowed by those whose political-social agenda is eerily supported by their version of fundamentalism.
Since I have my own sins to atone for here, I’ll not say more, but know this. You are someone to whom I go to check myself. I have yet to see or read anything from you not wrought in love and compassion. You are to be commended, and I count it a privilege to be your friend.